the military and so on. >> rose: and so, therefore, what is your posture now in terms of offensive, defensive? you obviously defeated your opponent or are you in the 13th round or the 14th round, where are you using the boxing metaphor? >> no. we are negotiating and when you are negotiating, in regard to your country, you are not thinking of victory. >> rose: n novick tri? >> you are not thinking of victory for yourself, you don't want your opponent to be a loser. you are thinking what is a victory for the people as a whole, south africans must be the victim tors, not of the anc, not of the leader of the anc but the people of sout south africa, therefore, i would hesitate to see any political party weakened. i want all the political parties involved in the negotiation to be strong, so as to bring their constituencies to the forward position so that we could speak with one voice on the fundamental question of building a new south africa. you don't in negotiation want the type of victory where you are in a boxing match. >> rose: do you love your country more than you love anything? >> well, tha